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The art of valuing people at work - Perry Timms [Interview]

The art of valuing people at work - Perry Timms [Interview]

February 6, 2024

About Perry Timms

Perry Timms is the founder of People and Transformational HR Limited. He's also the author of the book Transformational HR. He has also been listed as one of the most influential HR executives by world renowned organizations, passionate about changing the world of work, Perry is also global TEDx speaker and adviser on the future of work and HR.

Aishwarya Jain

We have the pleasure of welcoming Perry Timms today to our interview series, LeadersHum. I’m Aishwarya Jain from the peopleHum team. Before we begin, just a quick intro of peopleHum. peopleHum is an end-to-end, one-view, integrated human capital management automation platform, the winner of the 2019 global Codie Award for HCM that is specifically built for crafted employee experiences and the future of work with AI and automation technologies.

We run the peopleHum blog and video channel which receives upwards of 200,000 visitors a year and publish around 2 interviews with well-known names globally, every month.


Welcome Perry, we are thrilled to have you.


It's great to be here. I always have a little moment when an introduction like that happens because,  you kind of think when I started in the world of work, is this where I wanted to be? and Clearly it wasn't. But we just feel like it's been a journey that has shaped you so much, so Thank you for such a warm and dear welcome. Thank you. 


Absolutely our pleasure. So my first question for you, Perry is,

If you could tell us something about people and transformational HR limited? Can you share with us your vision and a journey that brought you to PTHR? 


Yeah, of course. So, prior to being an independent practitioner, that was 2012, I held a couple of HR and organizational development and learning and development roles in the charity sector in the UK and prior to that in the government service for the courts in England and Wales. But before that, I was involved in a lot of projects and I think that's what really got me into the whole people and work kind of equation and technology was often involved in those projects, so I got to see all of the technology evolve in the workplace and I guess I've taken all of them into the work I do now.

But what PTHR as an organization stands for, the standard line we have is 'better business for a better world'.
I think we've got obviously the current issue of a pandemic to deal with but even prior to that, we had a climate emergency. We had a fragile economy before that and lots of people weren't experiencing a good thing through their work.

I think that troubled me because I've had such a good one. It was almost like, How did I have a good one through my work? And there are lots of people struggling with mental health and just being unsatisfied about their work.

So, we aim to help companies create a place where people feel like they belong there, where what they do is valued, where they have opportunities to learn and develop and progress and ultimately become a good corporate citizen in the world to help the world built its own problems and its own challenges and we do that through looking at how the HR organization, design and learning aspects that work can enable that and bring people to life. I guess that's the kind of principle behind it. 

So, we held consulting and advising workshops and training and development and articulated in the opening on things like speeches and writing so that there's a message. We have some pretty defined principles about organizations that are more inclusive organizations, that are dominated by leaders and organizations, that are driven by more than just the acquisition of wealth.

But that, do good, provide good service for customers and a great place to work and they're very ambitious elements. But there are some companies out there who do some fantastic things in all of those spaces and I guess it's just creating that as a normal, off the exception is pretty much why we exist.



Wow, That is beautiful, actually, and

when you're doing this, for corporations, when you're trying to tell them what to do to have that kind of belonging to the organization. What are specific or the most important challenges that you think corporations go through and how can they deal with that? 


I think that there are two key factors. One is the leadership within the organization and how to behave and what makes them cool, which links to the second part of it, which is the culture of the organization. And sometimes, I have a little bit of a challenge in talking about culture change, because I think that's not a programmable thing, that you can just upload a new version.

"So the culture happens by not an accident but lots of very connected acts that people, particularly leadership roles, demonstrate."

So if a company is particularly aggressive in a sales market, then it may be quite a punishing environment for people to work with because of targets matter. And so if you feel a bit off, you don't perform. You get criticized and you feel disconnected because of that. So I guess there are things in the leadership and the culture area that we try to work on where we get invited to go and work for the client.

It's normally because a leader of either chief executive operating officer or in many cases, an HR or chief people officer will come to us and say, Right, we've recognized we have a challenge and an issue and we think what we need to do is work in a different way to have more leading figures in the organization that help create a culture where there are more trusted inclusion and practical activity and commitment and those kinds things.

So there's a recognition that there is a problem, a gap or a weakness, that obviously helps because I then don't have to persuade people that there's something worth doing. That has been recognized and then I help to build a solution to that problem that will involve, in many cases, lots of empowerment, lots of learning activities, and lots of processes and how decisions are made.

So they vary from client to client as you would expect. But often what is at play is that the culture and the leadership kind of model are such that it's held all in one space. It isn't distributed. People don't feel like they have influence and can change and challenge things to create better and we try and help disperse that kind of roll. So more people are brought into an accountable and responsible kind of areas.

Then, we build the systems that help keep that as an operating system so that it's not just some kind of project. It's a flash. And then it goes back to the old way we try and bring this as a sustainable, improving and kind of administered and built by everybody rather than just in a boardroom or just in certain roles and so that gets us into working with people who are writing their thick of digging with customers and clients and partners and stakeholders and suppliers, whilst also connecting to the decision-makers and people who have the positional power. 

"So we're often acting in urgency. It is an external perspective bringing into expertise and connecting those two forces, leadership and everybody"


That's really nice, how you get things and bring things together and try to help the engine run and keep it well oiled. And so in this entire process, when you're rewarding, you're recognizing people.

How important of a role will technology and digital really make? Especially if you need to improve the culture right now and in the future, how much will technology really help? What's your take on that? 


So where I see a good technology platform that connects people and works and decisions and allows things like creativity and good communication and inclusion. It makes it easier, absolutely. It's a key factor in increasing your likelihood of success, maybe the speed and who gets to act on things.

"If a technology platform has that real connecting force, things are easier and quicker."

Where the technology isn't quite advanced, it can still be affected. But it takes longer because the technology doesn't bind people. It doesn't flow in the work. It doesn't create the collectivity or the communication, the involvement in the influence. So it's crucial.

I mean, ironically, we've worked with some people who wanted to introduce new technology and so their technology is part of their gap and that's what's really, really hard to get, that traction really quickly, but rather just plug-in technology. We work on culture and technology at the same time almost in parallel movements, because as you start to get the culture to be more inclusive, that helps you build the technology that's the most appropriate, which then accelerates how the culture changes and how the leadership is then dispersed.

So it's vital and of course, in the world, we're living right now, we're isolated. By decree, then, obviously, that is the thing that is keeping a lot of people engaged, connected, and working. So again if he had poor technology platforms, you would find it even harder to do this dispersed, working as it is right now, So even in the best of times, yeah, it's a massive enabler. It's a massive congregating point, I guess, for the energy of people. 

So if somebody who is in contact with the customer has a Fantastic idea about how other customers could be helped in a particular way by changing a product or a service to improve the speed or the reliability of a solution for them, if they're in a sort of far-flung part of the office and they perhaps don't have that connection with a lot of people of influence, that idea may just wither and disappear and that would ultimately cost the organization both in finance, customer retention and maybe even employee retention. 

However, if that person was connected to a technology platform, he/she could surface that idea and share that outcome. But the people will find it replicated. Use it. That's when you can see almost like a social change within an organization. And that's again where technology has such a vital part to play because it isn't just a place where you can post to success. It's a place where other people can then improve how they work.

So, those are just a couple of examples where I think the take is vital, connecting people have an influence, making changes, mobilizing, being adaptable. 

"So, to have a strong technology platform that binds your organization, whether it's one or multiple applications, it's not just mission-critical. It’s beyond that."


Absolutely and I think tools that are like human capital management platforms that can connect and they can help be an enabler rather than anything else into this interconnection of doing it differently right


I think when we talk about human capital management, a lot of people do sometimes have a bit of a reaction because it sounds like a very cold, technical term. But I know what we mean is the value that people create not just because they follow a process, but they add to it. They enhance it and so on. And I think when we're trying to get a hold on, where is the work? Where are the people who have the right skills that could do the right thing?

A human capital management system helps you understand how to design the organization and the workflow in order to do that. And then when you want to do things like spot potential, identify expertise, share that, learn, collaborate again...

"An HCM system just helps you map your organization, the people, there, so that you're acting on intelligence, not just on instinct."

...And actually you're using data trails and I guess you'd say analytics to help distribute fairly and keep a really strong sense of control, not over people, but about how well they're supported. 


Yeah, absolutely. And I think you're right, if the platform is data-driven and your decisions are more data-driven, you will get better results rather than being intuitive and making those intuitive decisions right. 


I think there's definitely been a tendency to underplay how important data is until probably about five or 10 years ago, where I think Data Analytics had a real revolution because the technology was starting to reveal just how much benefit could be obtained by what you describe good use of data and analytics.

But then I think there's a match of skill that's needed and I guess an attitude is well within the profession, particularly in HR to know how to do that. But I do that. I mean, I know how to mind the information you have now to use it in decisions you talked about and then look at what you are still lacking in when it comes to data and look at how you can close that gap and create more of an integrated system.

We've got multiple data sources that can give you much more three-dimensional fuse, rather than just one line. So I think I've been used to HR reporting things like demographics and very basic human information and now I see much more intricate much more, interrogatable data about performance and development potential and utilization and connectivity and communication and all those sorts of things have given us a chance to go. 

Actually, we over-communicate to people because what we're seeing from our data is they're overwhelmed. Therefore we need to be more gentle or more specific about how we engage in certain areas. And even though the workforce may not realize that, that's a good thing that we do...

"And I think that's what data has given us is giving us a chance to be much more deliberate or plan and much more intelligent about what we do in things like communication workflow"

...and sadly, I think, people in the workplace might not realize that. So we're probably needing to articulate that more and involve that more I think in how we use data. So I'd say that's another gap. We have to close good HCM, good data, and good use. I think we also need to let people know that's what we're doing. 


Yeah, I think there is a problem of awareness may be because they don't realize how much data can help them in making a lot of decisions to make life easier. We just probably have that mindset that, it would really probably kind of slow down their work and they just don’t want to make the effort of using platforms.

But really, a lot of these data insights and they're interconnected together like performance with hiring and then engagement of candidates. All of that could really, really help an organization become better. 


Definitely so, And so I think if we project ahead and we start to spoke about more AI and automation, then what people will probably worry about is that it's going to impact them negatively. And it might be this brutal cut of the flow of work. And it doesn't take into account any of the human variables.

"But if we let people know we're already using data to make decisions like that, it just isn't sophisticated enough that it automates the process. Then people might be a bit more comfortable."

This is just another version of integration of what we're already operating. And so I think sometimes we ought to, as you use the engine metaphor earlier on, kind of lifted it and say, Look, this is how combustion works and this is what's going on. Here we go, I get, I get all the things that set in it. 

And then if we do want to dial a technology to be even more sophisticated, we might have less of a fearful reaction. In a more participant reaction in how people play a part in making sure that Tech does the right thing and is good and ethical, and helps them even more in their jobs. You're right. I think we owe it to people to let them in a little bit more. How technology Is enhancing, how effective we could be both an organizational level and at their level individually.



And in your lifetime career, have you seen an increase in the adoption of such technologies? What are the kind of hindrances that people usually feel? Why are they hesitant to use technology if they are?


So, I think yes is the easy answer to that about the increased use of self. I would say what is hindering something is perhaps a skill set within HR to be more aware of how to use that technology in its broadest widest, the most powerful sense. To a lot of people, it's almost like just a database with some added workflow and it is far richer than that, but there's a lack of exploration about what else it could do.

And I mean that in a non-critical sense. Because our HR colleagues are busy doing all sorts of things right now, and I've always been busy doing recruitment campaigns and everything else. So the reason they haven't become expert technologists because they just got pretty distracting workload, Right now.

I see an emerging kind of strength in some practitioners that I know who are very good with technology who have single-handedly implemented an entire ERP system or HCM system. I got to know the technology, worked with the implementation teams, understood the full scale of functionality, and absolutely used it to the very sort of plus degree and got some great results, as a consequence. So that's one thing.

"The tech skill level, I think an HR implementing system leveraging it. I think that needs to be improved."

Then I think what we have is often companies have very disparate systems they have purchased the ordering system, have a supply chain system, they have a finance system, they have an HR system and often trying to aggregate the data that's in there to make some good people base decisions on could be really difficult, so difficult that sometimes the pain of the journey to try and get a tech to talk together is far too great and people fudge it in the middle with manual interventions. That doesn't make it a great system.

And So I like to see more KPI’s, program interfaces. I think we need to tackle that one. And so...

"Any solution that could bring data in different formats that can then be used to interrogate scenario model"

...certain things are gonna help a lot. So an aggregation, I think, is probably another disciple in point. 

But then again, I think there's also then people's experiences, new technology is introduced and can create a little bit of attention because people think and feel incompetent in using that new platform and that new technology. So how we bring them in? How we skill them? give them confidence? I think you can stretch the benefit further because people use it right and well.

I see a lot of people who were using things like chatbots, who then still wanna pick up the phone and talk to somebody because they just don't like using the chatbot or they're a bit uncomfortable with the chatbot or could probably get their answer in a shorter time. They're being held in a queue trying to speak to an individual. So some of it is habits and attitudes and competences and confidence. And I think if we invest in people to make the most of technology, we delivered to them obviously the results are for us.


Absolutely. And you're right, we at peopleHum also saw the main pain point of HR professionals where you kind of struggling with, sixteen-seventeen software in one particular company and they have different sets of data. And then that's when we decided that we should make everything integrated.

We have chatbot integrated and we have the complete experience of an employee on the same platform. So, that really makes a lot of difference having everything under just one umbrella. So your not wasting a lot of time


Yeah, and to be fair again to my colleagues, where I've seen that technology as part of the equation, their skill set has improved because they haven't had the tech as an inhibitor. The tech is actually enabled them to make more of the data and they've got better and better at both, using the data in a predictive sense to say, if we move location, what would that mean in terms of human capital impact and what's the market where I would like to recruit say for example.

And then I've seen them use it in a deductive analytic sensor where they've been looking at the here and now, the performance in the flow and so on. So both in its projected sentence predicted data and they're using the data to inform on short term decisions or some process improvements.

So you're right, that integration point is absolutely key because there's almost the ideal platform for the data to be manipulated and interrogated and ask it questions to reveal the answers that you need for the problems you're having. That's where I've seen the level of capability of HR professionals increase so the tech, then absolutely fosters a better, more technologically able HR professionals


Absolutely. So we are talking about the tools part of it, we are talking about the process and,

Let's talk a little about productivity and people. How do you connect both of them? And it's very interesting here. You're like a chief energy officer which is very interesting to me. So if you could just elaborate on that, well I think that would be helpful for our viewers. 


Yeah. Great. So there was a deliberate reason behind it because being the CEO of yourself doesn't make much sense. But I have had a reputation for being an Energizer, and actually, since then I've kind of looked into energy a lot more. So my second book coming out is called The Energized Workplace.

Because I do think we ignore, actually that...

"People are not like a device that you plug in and It has a constant hum of energy. It fluctuates with all sorts of things. "

...If we are particularly challenged by something intellectually, sometimes that can raise our energy level because we love the challenge. Sometimes it can deplete it because we get frustrated that we don't know the answer. So the energy in human beings is not an easy thing to predict. 

However, when we're talking about productivity, I think those places that can somehow energize their people also create a link to particular productivity. And that's not just because they were longer or harder. But there is a more energetic approach to how they tackle problems, issues, disagreements, whatever it might be. So people in productivity, the energy thing, I think six in the middle and around that it's almost like the force in Star Wars and so, How does that happen? 

Well, I think it starts in a number different ways, because if people feel connected and they belong to the organization, go back to our starting point about connection and influence, then I think there is already a kind of a plus on the energy side because they're like, I know I'm here. I believe in what this company wants to do for its customers. Whether it's cleaning offices or whether it's healthcare service.

If people believe that the company has good intent, good ethics, a good way of doing things that's already an energy plus. Then I think we come into play with an HR because we create the conditions by things like job roles, job descriptions, competency profiles, learning and development, career opportunities, engagement activities, reward, and benefits, all of those things help people. I think and understand the sense of value and then links them to the value they great for the company a little bit more explicitly 

Now, in the world right now. I don't think we make that strong enough connection we recruit to a job description. We give people a job description then it goes in the job role. They never look at it again where actually in it, is the essence of why they're there and what they should I do. We then create performance management reviews, which feel like they're very much a kind of a functional exchange between the manager and member of that team.

We also respond really well to our peer feedback. We like getting responses from our team members about what we've helped them, and so I think we're sometimes a little bit underutilizing those things when we can connect them to performance. We think if we have paying bonuses, that is the driver for people to succeed when actually I think a lot of research says that's not the only thing...

"It's a sense of purpose I started whether it's the sense of being able to influence and make decisions"

...than Pinks Famous drives Book in 2009 talked about mastery, autonomy, and purpose, and I think that's pretty much what it is. 

People get to be good at things they feel confident at. It is connected to a higher purpose and they have the ability to direct themselves, make decisions, and feel like it's their enterprise, not just that they're doing a job. So I think that's what we have a challenge in making that more of a regular thing in the workplace.

So I think we need to pay attention to the relationship that people have with the reason they're there and the recognition of the value they create. And if we do that in a much more human, regular, purposeful way, I think that's when productivity starts to tick higher. 


Absolutely. I think it's all about the higher purposes, isn't it? It is about satisfaction and really feeling belonged to your workplace it is all about that.


Completely. Yep, Completely going back to technologies and enablers are the communication that comes to the technology, the connections you have with people of workflow and how you can assess your impact and your results, and so on. Technology has a lot to offer there, too. And I think we are probably not there yet, but I think we could get quite near too.

Almost like an individual, you could have a dashboard by saying, these are the things I've done and it says hears the value that you've created, not just in an economic sense but, customer satisfaction, community import, All those kind of things. And I think if we had access to that, we would feel a lot more satisfied at the end of the day and perhaps not be so unaware of what value would create. 

"I think a lot of people go home working hard and think about what did I actually achieve today."

And I think if we can help people do that through technology, I think you know a bit like if you've run 5k it tracks how far you've gone. It tells you how many calories you've burned. You're like, Yeah, I think we need a workplace equivalent of that technology platform. I think we would be a lot happier. 


Yeah. Having those little nudges in the platform that can actually motivate you to do better to do more excellent of having the concept of badges and okay,  you have earned one badge and go ahead and get the next batch. Absolutely that would enhance the employee experience and user experience. 


Yeah, and I think we call that Gamification. Don't we or game mechanics. And I think we've introduced that because we've recognized in particular the video game world. Whatever it is that's kind of inspired us to spend hours and sense of achievement through it.

I think it needs to be done sincerely I'm gonna like the fact that you mentioned things like badges. So those are accomplishments that other people will feel that sort of benefit in knowing they've got a trusted colleague who has these badges who can do some of the work.

So it is a kind of validity thing, and I think people quite like that goes back guest medals and badges in Cub Scouts and on the classroom walls and stuff. So I don't think we ever tire that. I think we always think that's a good way to endorse who you are or what we do. 


Absolutely, everybody likes games, isn't it?

But what do you think now, after the Coronavirus scenario, what is it? What are those features in a platform that would really stand out and, kind of be a differentiator as such?


I guess what we're seeing these couple of things and It's obviously still early days, but I get this sense that the social connection is really important. So, like I'm talking to you now, it feels like this could be that we're even in the same room because Dynamic is pretty intimate. But where we don't see like 15 people on a conversation that can get very chaotic in the technology world.

So I think it's that gap between the intimate of two or three and the kind of chaos that becomes like 10 or 15 people on a call, any technology that could kind of help make that on more realistic social experience as if you were in the real world. I think that would be a benefit of future kind of remote home working.

Will we see a massive, massive shift to home working? I don't think we'll see a massive shift, but I think we will have a lot more people say, in normal circumstances where I'm not having to homeschool and worry about where my groceries come from being locked in, what I want to commute less and spend some time either in my home or in a co-working space that's near to me.

I think the answer might be yes, because I think we shouldn't underplay the social connection between, going to a place and working with people. But I don't think that's where we will put all our interest in when we recover from this. 

I think a lot of people get to say as long as there's some regularity of contact like this and sometime when you come together, this is more convenient for my life. It makes me more focused in certain ways that it means I can go pick my Children from school without a torturous commute. I don't pollute the environment anymore. I think people are going to say this is better. Maybe not all the time. 

"So I think a platform that helps people feel really connected to their work and their colleagues will be even more critical than it is now."

People are doing okay with email and slack and other channels. But I think if there's a system that underpins all those social connections, the grate workflow doesn't negatively sort of, impact on their brakes and variations and stuff.

Yeah, I can see that being a post-Corona reaction that it would need to be facilitated. So well, you'd be interested to see how the tech industry reacts to that. Perhaps increased need to be connected and social but through a platform. 


Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? Kind of predicting what's going to happen in the future and then crafting an experience or crafting a platform in a way that has those features, it is very interesting to not think about it and put your ideas in there.


Yeah, right, Yeah, go for the next question. 


How do you believe as we go into the future right, How is the gig economy going to evolve? and you consider that growing millennials in our workforce?


Yeah, So I've watched this one for quite some time being interested in what it can describe Like alternative organizations who have had something very different about them. They've interested me for just the fact that it's new and practice pioneering and I've seen it kind of grow, and I've seen it kind of practice and have a bit of a backlash, certainly, some companies have abused/overused, that model and therefore government legislation has come in and union representation has come into.

So I think we're in the early stages still of that maturity, of that part of the working model and environment and of course, a lot of people will say that in the gig economy, you've got some people who are utterly vital, like drivers, deliveries and so on and maybe you've got some others who are not quite so key right now and their work has just disappeared and they have no choice, what to do about that.

So it is quite fragile. And it is quite emergent, I guess, In terms of policy and utilization, again, I think what's in its favor is choice and that people can make a choice to work in that way because they would rather have one or two or three small geek type outlets, warehousing, overdriving whatever because that suits their life that suits their economic elements any Maybe they would prefer to be multiply employed rather than singularly, particularly what's happened as a result of Corona. 

So yeah, so I think I think there's an interesting maybe re-purpose or review of How that works Post Corona and so flexibility, Great choice, Great fragility, not so grey economic might be a bit of a challenge work benefits and I guess you'd call it almost like the parachute that people might feel where some companies are paying employees even though they're sort not working.

Some governments have actually dropped money into the economy to do that too. Those on gig time contracts just don't seem to have any of that kind of welfare aspect to it. So it does need a lot more review and perhaps a lot more fairness. 

But the flexibility, like another choice, is what caused its creation in the first place. And I don't think we should be too hasty to remove that choice, but I think we should look at how we can create a bit more stability around that flexibility. Will it suffer as a result of post coronavirus? I think it will have some challenges that are probably different from paid employees that there's probably no single body that will act in their interests and so it will be at the kind of best of different companies, perhaps reviewing how they want to use what I often called contingent workforce.

So, yeah, I think it might be a case by case company by company basis. But as an industry, it faces big challenges. We all do that maybe with less representation and less specific lobbying powers to influence what's good for it. So I say we'll see, but let's say it's there for a reason, so Maybe that reason will be reassessed, and we'll see a different version of it. On the other side of this 


Absolutely, I think, you'll have to embrace flexibility and just see what we can do to make the best of our time.

And, at this point in time, what is it that you know, talking about HR professionals especially. What do you think they should be focusing on the most?


So I guess if we're talking about Coronavirus specifics, then it's that is the welfare of the people in their own organizations and in their networks and that shouldn't be underestimated in terms of not just, the physical illnesses that come from the virus itself, but the kind of mental trauma of those people who have lost people close to them.

People have been isolated environments and that's impacted on their mental health. So I think there are you know, almost like circles of the impact of this, specifically. But I think the other thing is obviously gonna be you know, what is a business than on the other side of this? 

You know, if nobody's got any money and there are no customers, you can have all the great products that you want, but people won't be able to buy them. So I think there is something that I keep coming back to. Which is can people professionals particularly help his part of not just a recovery plan but a reinvention plan?

Because if there is any salvation on the other side of this, for an organization, it is you know what is relevant now. That may have been relevant before but isn't now. So when it's changed, adapt, pivot, respond to different things and that's a really tough way to operate for some companies that had a very steady, stable product into appointments, then almost not needed and therefore in the New World, what is needed. 

So I think people professionals will have to keep their duty of care to people. Whilst simultaneous, help them to design the organization both in a job, product and services operating model and inclusion on fairness kind of equation.

"So people professionals, I think I've really had a challenge but have shown quite a large degree of compassionate and very rapid and intense support for people right now."

So I've got nothing but admiration for the majority of my profession. It was really sure that there are humane and effective ways of dealing with instant shut down and then, On the other side of that, I think that is there, Okay, How did we reinvent it now? Not to avoid crisis because, you know, this is so a crisis that you couldn't have predicted. But how do we stay relevant, useful and good on the other side of this reinvention


Right, so it's all about reinvention. And how can we be flexible and make this time really, really useful in terms of flexibility to alter those processes to make it right?

So I just have one last question. If you want to tell our viewers any important sound bites that you would like to leave for our viewers? 


Wow. It sounds like a couple. So I think, as we opened and we started to talk through the sort of value and the whole essence of people in an organization. And I think my kind of sound bite on this one is, let's stop talking about people is our best asset and they start talking about our organization as our people are, because it doesn't exist without them.

So yes, I think we need to stop thinking about those resources and think about them as they are it, they are the essence of our organization so changed that narrative. 

I think then the inclusivity thing is crucial. So I think there could be on the other side of this a way to bring more people into more influential parts of how the business is reinvented and shaped, so rather just talk consultation or working groups. I think it's almost like everybody gets a chance to reinvent this organization on the other side.

How do you do that? I think there are some clues already out there in the way that software world uses all engineers, designers and so on in the process so agile, that kind of responsive and incremental and quite pacey way of doing things I think has to become our new signature and that in itself is quite responsive and adaptable.

But I think it's all about inclusion and the pace of creativity. So I think that's let's talk about the organization in a human sense. Let's make sure that we are creating the right conditions for people by including them and then I think we operate in an agile way to get there as quickly and as collectively as we can and I think those are the three things I'd focus on. The narrative, I suppose the inclusion and the agility. 


Right so we change the narrative, We need to be more inclusive and we need to be more agile, good points and once again Thank you so much for your time, Perry. It's been a wonderful, wonderful conversation, and I appreciate you sharing your views with us. I really hope to stay in touch with you. 


Let's do it. Let's do it. And like I say, it will be interesting to see when we are through this about what's next. So happy that we can circle back and see if there are some more things to talk about as our reinvention phase kicks it, but thank you for allowing me to share my views. 


Absolutely, Thank You so much. Take care of yourself, Perry and I’ll stay in touch with you.


Sure, You too.

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