About Denys Dinkevych
Denys Dinkevych is the talent sourcing lead of iDeals solutions group. He has helped organizations identify & attract the most prospective talent on a global scale. He has emerged as a sourcing leader, who has a great desire to learn and specializes in analytics. His skills in sourcing tools, pipeline building, and recruiting marketing are very well recognized. We are happy to have someone of his stature join us here, on our interview series.
We have the pleasure of welcoming Denys Dinkevych today to our interview series. I’m Aishwarya Jain from the peopleHum team. Before we begin, just a quick intro of peopleHum - peopleHum is an end-to-end, one-view, integrated human capital management automation platform, the winner of the 2019 global Codie Award for HCM that is specifically built for crafted employee experiences and the future of work.
We run the peopleHum blog and video channel which receives upwards of 200,000 visitors a year and publish around 2 interviews with well-known names globally, every month.
So the first question I have for you Denys is If you could tell us something about your interesting work as a sourcing lead.
The main reason I chose sourcing is because it's interesting to me. I really like the Internet and the value provided to us. I'm happy to have this recruitment background. It seems to want to help me collaborate with the recruitment function because, again, I think it's essential for us to, make this collaboration really efficient.
“Collaborate with the recruitment function because, again, I think it's essential for us to, make this collaboration really efficient.”
Absolutely. I also think that a lot of organizations are still not aware of sourcing and they do not really, find this as very important.
Can you tell us why is it so important, and why organizations should really focus on good sourcing?
Yeah, So first of all, I think that nowadays recruitment is somehow related to marketing and selling jobs, and their capacity for this job market is really huge. And that's why that demand for talent is also, super high, and I saw that the actual talent is being realized in it, and so being in demand, they're able to choose.
So, not only to choose what role to apply for but choose from the roles that employers offer them. That's why I think it's really not a good idea just to spray and pray. So everyone just comes and applies to your role. That's why you need to find these people from the basic market and then know how to engage them. So I think sourcing is not only about searching but also about providing really extensive engagement which can vary based on the type of role we are talking about.
“So I think sourcing is not only about searching but also about providing really extensive engagement which can vary based on the type of role we are talking about."
But still, I think it's very, very essential to be able for the organization to choose this talent from the market and not only wait for people to apply. So I see that it has a direct impact on how these people will perform and what this organization can achieve with the help of these people.
Right. That makes sense. It's not just about spraying and praying, but actually finding out you know where you will get the right kind of talent when you're trying to search for a specific role.
Right, and even I think I was talking to Karen from Israel and she told me that sourcing right talent is just so important and a lot of organizations, just look at it on the bases of the pyramid, and then they think that recruiting is on top. And then, you know, they would have all the hiring managers, but it's really that sourcing and recruiting they really go hand in hand and which is I think absolutely true.
And it's very interesting the way you say that recruiting is more of marketing.
So can you tell us how organizations, you know, effectively engage in recruitment marketing?
Yeah, so I see, first of all, that recruitment marketing should start from a corporate blog. Encouraging your employees to blog about something they are achieving in their jobs is essential because it is part of creating awareness.
When people Google something to find a solution and are not specifically looking for a job and when they find a solution on your corporate blog, it is actually this moment when they become aware of you as an employer.
And because in this particular case you are solving their problem, you're providing them the answer to the question they have so it's really super-strong brand establishment when it's coming through this way. That's why I think the first thing that organizations should do, is to just blog about how they do the job, how they solve problems.
“That's why I think the first thing that organizations should do, is to just blog about how they do the job, how they solve problems.”
For now, it's really a hype topic about how they like operating remotely, how they're making sure remote meetings are efficient and stuff like this.
Another part of it is actually having really informative career sites. So when you have some blogs, which are redirecting people to your career site, it should provide people with most of the answers to questions they ask. So I think it's really important.
So it should be designed together as an organization and provide really robust information about the type of roles in particular departments, about your culture and stuff like that. That's actually how with the help of marketing you can let your candidates apply.
So, in short, recruitment marketing scenario is actually how you are approaching people. So whether you are using their personal email address or just reaching out to them on LinkedIn. So what type of outreach you use, whether you are setting some automatic follow-ups for people just to make sure that they are aware of this opportunity and not missing any kind of stuff that they can probably need.
So the frequency of your reach out, the number of channels you're using to reach out to people, that’s also a really important part. Currently, recruitment practices should adopt best practices from sales and from marketing and apply them to their day to day work in order to make sure you're reaching the markets in demand.
Yes, actually that’s very insightful and, you know, we can also make glossary pages where we would have more information about the job and the carrier site should give a lot of answers to a lot of frequently asked questions and,
What do you think about a chatbot, placing a chatbot on the career site? Does that help?
Yeah, I think that it definitely makes sense because not only chatbot, you can actually put some push notifications for people. For example, when they're visiting your career page you can send them a push notification and ask whether they want to be notified as soon as a particular type of role will be available.
Yeah, and chatbot also makes sense. So first of all, Chatbot can provide additional answers to some questions people have. Also, it can link to your Facebook corporate page. If people want to discuss some particular thing they're interested in like candidate database, for example, with the help of a chatbot it is definitely a good idea.
“If people want to discuss some particular thing they're interested in like candidate database, for example, with the help of a chatbot it is definitely a good idea.”
All right, that makes sense for candidate experience and for engagement and just to collect you know information at the beginning right and
Tell us how do you believe that, data-driven recruitment is important, and what sort of expertise is needed and search algorithms to effectively recruit for a particular position?
Yeah, I think that it's definitely super important, but I believe that most of the time when people say that like their recruitment is data-driven, it's actually because it's a super popular approach not because they actually have these processes being data-driven.
This is why I believe it's important. So first of all the numbers and the statistics, it's obviously something we can rely on instead of, just relying on our expectations and suggestions and assumptions.
Then another thing is if you compare your previous roles you were recruiting for if you have a specific number of, for example: how many people you found, how many of them you were contacted, and how many of them responded. So in the end, you need to have, how many people you need to contact in general to make one hire. So I think it's really great if you have an understanding in the beginning of work of a particular role, how many people you should have in the pipeline in order to consider all of your previous placements.
“So I think it's really great if you have an understanding at the beginning of work of a particular role, how many people you should have in the pipeline in order to consider all of your previous placements.”
So this is how you should operate in this direction. And another thing about data-driven recruitment is that you can always provide your hiring managers to go back to something that they could rely on with data, with numbers.
For example, this week, you didn't provide them enough amount of candidates for them to interview, so they can ask you why and you can actually tell them that, this week I spoke to this amount of people and this amount of people responded, but they are not interested in it, etc.
Yeah, so you can also make sure that everyone follows that process because usually hiring managers are not experts in hiring. So they can only guess whether you are good or not. But when you're providing them with numbers, it's also ensuring that you are building really transparent relationships that you can set some expectations with them.
And again, you yourself can rely on it. Based on your previous experience if you're measuring these numbers, you can rely on them making sure that you are reaching your goals and doing it in time and actually over exceeding expectations of hiring managers.
Absolutely. I think data can really give us some support, and it can tell us what the real scenario is and you cannot really hide anything from data. So it's exact and it's correct.
And if we go by that. I think it will be very beneficial for the recruitment processes of organizations and hiring managers will have to be really robust and You know, they'll have to start adopting data really, really fast, because I think there are a lot of countries.
I'm not sure what the situation in Ukraine is but a lot of countries still struggle with being very data-driven, you know, especially for recruitment, they don't really rely on data and that is a big, big issue here.
Yes. So I think that definitely, Ukraine is not the most developed market in terms of recruitment practices and adoption of all of these things. But for me, I think that everyone can start just from the very basic spreadsheet.
Just a very basic table where you can just drag these things manually. So for many people, I believe, data-driven sounds like something being automated and something that is happening at the backend and then just providing us with the insights.
You need to build it manually and then it can be automated. But first of all, you need to manually log these numbers and see. For example, by using the basic Excel formulas, you can see the conversion rate, the number of people you found, and the number of people you reach!
So everything starts with the small parts. But then, obviously, when you become more familiar with the spreadsheet and work on it weekly, you're going to want to somehow scale it, automate it etc.
Then you can actually involve someone who is good enough in writing functions in Excel and make it more interactive and create it in the Dashboard view. And then, it can be integrated within your applicant tracking system.
And then actually based on the need, you can engage your engineers, so they can help you to integrate again and scale these things, set up recurring email reports for the hiring manager, for example, and for you, each Monday of each week. It should start with very small parts. And that's how you will be able to become data-driven indeed.
“It should start with very small parts. And that's how you will be able to become data-driven indeed.”
Right, absolutely. Just start from the basics and you know to use Excel formulas. And in fact, that's kind of the ambition that we have at peoplehum, if you just load data and resumes in it, we kind of give you a hiring dashboard, which tells, what is you're hired versus what's your offered versus what's your drop out.
So just simple data and simple graphical format. And that really helps a lot because you know where your gaps are and then who's your best recruiter? What is your attrition rate?
And you know, when you talk about building a talent brand for organizations, is there a best practice to do that or some best way for organizations to better their reputation online?
Yeah, so I think that a Brand for me starts off with the things that I already mentioned, like a corporate blog, especially if it's separated for example, for engineering, for marketing, for a product. And that's actually the way people can decide on joining you, realize how you are doing the job that they actually will be supposed to do if they join. So I think it's very important to have this kind of practice.
When people realize that your company has actually found a solution that they were searching for, this is the most strong establishment of the brand, they actually can have, because afterward, they will, spread the word about you with their friends right away and say, "Oh, you know, I was just googling for some solution and there is a company that is called as so and so."
And then I found a blog post on their Corporate page and it actually helped me a lot. So it's a really cool company, I believe that if they're providing this stuff as a corporate blog then probably they're doing a great job. I think that, in marketing, you need to provide people with some real value. And that's how you can actually establish your brand in their minds and make them some kind of ambassador of your brand, even without being reached out to by you.
“I think that, in marketing, you need to provide people with some real value. And that's how you can actually establish your brand in their minds and make them some kind of ambassador of your brand, even without being reached out to by you."
So I think that a really good way is corporate blogging and another thing that also works is if you're offering them some kind of a checklist or PDF or white paper or something like this.
So just in exchange for their email address you're providing them the value they're looking for, and then you are actually able to reach out to them using this email, in particular, if at all you have some role that is needed for these people.
So that's kind of how it works, I believe, first of all, you need to provide value even though we are not talking about people buying something.
Yes, we are talking about people buying the jobs we are offering them, but still, I see that it's really better when these relationships are established in this scenario when you provide them the value first and then these people become more loyal and more open to what you have to say to them in terms of job offers.
Right. That makes a lot of sense. And that's really helpful, actually, because I don't think that we think of writing a blog or having blog posts on your organization. And that might really give a lot of information to the candidate and can add value to what the candidate already knows about the organization.
So that is a very, very helpful tip and since referrals are still the number one source of hiring. It makes a lot of sense to have a good knowledge of your organization. And so they can spread the word out there and that would be helpful for talent branding.
And you know so with the recent scenario right of Coronavirus. How do you think sourcing has changed or has it changed at all. And do you think that, in the future, there's going to be any change in sourcing or are they going to be issues with people, having issues with sourcing? Is there anything in your mind like that?
Yeah, so I think that definitely nowadays due to the COVID-19 pandemic, it's really become harder not only to reach people but to get positive responses from them because most people are trying to stick to the place they're currently working at and trying not to change anything because the time of coronavirus is pretty challenging.
So yeah, I think it's a good idea for now to include all points related to changes which coronavirus brings to your company so people can understand.
So again, it's similar to providing them with answers to frequently asked questions. First of all, everyone who you're reaching out to now wants to know how your organization is affected by coronavirus, how does it change your business and what changes is it bringing to your benefits package, etc.
So if you provide people with answers on most of these questions and just ensure them that if they will join you, you won't fire them in one month.
And also, I think it's a good idea for you to ensure that you're reaching out to people over email. Especially nowadays, I think it's really very important because I believe those people who are still employed and they're still working, I think that most of them are super focused on their jobs and they rarely visit LinkedIn so they receive more emails than before.
That's why if you're reaching out to them, it might not be that efficient and the response rate would be not as high as you expect it to be. Another thing about what will change in sourcing is It will still be harder and harder to engage people so we need to think about the development of our campaigns, we definitely need to think about using retargeting ads in social media.
“It will still be harder and harder to engage people so we need to think about the development of our campaigns, we definitely need to think about using retargeting ads in social media. ”
So not only reaching people over email or LinkedIn but also reaching them on their social media networks, just to convince them to apply.
Absolutely. I think a good candidate experience would really be essential to have a good granting for your organization and also to ensure that your candidate is not really lost in the process and give them a confirmation as soon as possible, or just some news that will help them have less anxiety and thank you for that explanation.
So I'm going to wrap this up with the last question. If you have any other important sound bites that you'd like to leave our audience?
Yeah, I think that for those who still don't realize that sourcing right talent is good enough to adopt as a skill, I hope they soon can understand it. And step by step start involving themselves in this activity and you will see how your numbers will increase very soon, and you will become more result-oriented and a more productive recruiter.
And I'd also request everyone to stay safe, in this COVID-19 scenario. I believe that we'll get through it very soon. We just need to wait for a little bit and make sure that we are applying all of the quarantine rules we have in our countries.
“We just need to wait for a little bit and make sure that we are applying all of the quarantine rules we have in our countries.”
And hopefully, as always, after a big fall, it will be like a huge, huge race and huge ups. So I think that great times are likely in the near future. So we just need to be strong and stay safe again.
Absolutely. Thank you for that wonderful message. It's important that we stay safe and you know to hunker down right now. And I think there will be a really good time coming after the pandemic too and I completely agree with you. So, we must be prepared for that as much as possible. So thank you so much. It was a pleasure talking to you, Denys, I really appreciate your time and your views and, thank you so much for this learning experience.
Likewise, thanks so much for having me. It was great to have a conversation with you. Thank you very much.
Absolutely. And I'll stay in touch with you. Take care. Denys.